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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Sept 2, 2013 23:39:58 GMT -5
I cannot help but laugh... only so many of this cover available etc... its like thats how many "true believers" have that much expendible income. Its the same 200 people who might buy the marines whos "legs dont bend back(an off twin peaks reference to the worst sm models ever... and this includes the lawnchair landspeeder marines).
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Sept 17, 2013 0:47:58 GMT -5
This review made me excited to see the dex... Its one I will probably buy...
from bell of lost souls:
Space Marines, Hoooooo!!! Posted by Reece Robbins at 9/11/2013 115 Comments
If Miley Cyrus were here, she'd been twerkin like a champ! So, as most of you probably know, the Space Marines are here. And...they...are...awesome!
I am of the opinion that the previous Space Marine book was one of the best codices written in the previous edition in terms of internal balance and variety of effective builds. It certainly lost some steam as the years went by and some units were clearly over costed, but it remained a characterful book that allowed you to play a ton of different builds that were both true to the fluff (largely) and effective. That is a win. The Dark Eldar book also pulled this off, and I really enjoyed that one as well.
With this newest version of GW's flagship product, we see that they took the previous template that worked so well, and simply fine tuned it. Well done. If it aint broke, don't fix it.
So, what we have is a book that allows you the player to build a HUGE variety of builds that are effective. I really feel that this is one of the best balanced books to have come out in ages. The nice thing about this book is that they took the character of chapter tactics, honed it, and then built in a system that limits overlapping rules and potentially game-breaking combos by prohibiting special characters to certain chapter tactics. That is a nice, elegant solution to some of the craziness that we see with Tau/Eldar or Tau/Tau, for example. The game is most fun when it's balanced, and this to me, is a good sign.
As for the Chapter Tactics themselves, I think they're all very good. Some jump out as more powerful right away, but in our play testing, limited so far but we're getting a lot of games in (check out our YouTube channel as we start to get the SM bat reps edited and up on the site) we've seen that they're all good when used correctly.
The great thing about the book is that you can play it in SO many different ways. You really can go crazy with it. By allowing allies within the codex, you can cherry pick some great units to fulfill specific roles and really take the level of customization in your force to the next level. You have a wide variety of effective and points efficient shooting and assault units to bring a true TAC list to the table, and combined with the special rules of your chosen chapter(s) and/or special characters, the skilled gamer can really build a great army.
One of the other aspects of the book I love, is that fact that you can build super flexible and powerful characters, completely custom! The wargear in the book allows you to make your own unique hero to forge some serious narratives. That is super fun as customization in 40K is one of its most appealing aspects to me and why I prefer it to games like Warmachine which lack that (although Warmachine is a great game, too).
As we are just dipping our toes into this big book, and all I can offer up so far is limited knowledge, I will say that my off the cuff impression is ultra positive. I think GW hit it out of the park with this book and while the nay sayers may be saying Marines can't hang with Tau or Eldar, I totally disagree. This is a book that provides a plethora of tools for the tool box and will please both the casual and competitive gamer. Well done, GW.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Sept 17, 2013 1:04:54 GMT -5
But also this BoLS article makes it sound that much better:
40K EDITORIAL: Top 7 Reasons Marine are Amazing Posted by Larry Vela at 9/12/2013 190 Comments
Hey guys, Learn2Eel here with the first in what will be a very long series of Tactica articles concerning the undisputed kings of Warhammer 40,000 - the mighty Adeptus Astartes!
I hope you enjoy this article, and I would also like to say that I am striving to make this simply the best Tactica series that I have done as yet! Enjoy!
Introduction
Since the introduction of Warhammer 40000 over twenty years prior, one faction has stood alone at the top of the game; wearing its inspiration on its sleeve, and setting the tone for countless sci-fi epics to follow. We all know and love them in our own special way, and it is pleasing to state first up that this is a very well balanced and rewarding codex that is sure to garner the love of all Space Marine players out there. Even as a dirty heretic and xenos player myself, I find myself drawn into the allure of the Space Marines like never before; with rules updated for 6th Edition and a major overhaul of the Black Templars to fit into the main codex, this looks to be one of Games Workshops' highest quality codices yet. My impressions of the background, artwork and - most importantly, of course - the rules have all been very positive; this is a great book and one you really should have in your claws (or fingers, some people have those too).
I will go on record though and point out that, from a strictly high-tier competitive point of view, Space Marines likely will still struggle with some of their previously most heinous counters; Eldar, Tau and the forces of Chaos - notably Daemons and Heldrakes - will still terrorize the Astartes to no end. The issue of elite troops that are removed en masse by cover and armour-ignoring weaponry with high strength has not been solved in any meaningful sense, and any kind of model that pays for extras will always have a tough time against the Eldar - who laugh at any armour save or Toughness value. Suffice it to say though, Space Marines are sure to introduce some nasty builds into the competitive environment, with White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamander builds in particular looking exceptionally dangerous. Who cares about Heldrakes when your entire army is in combat on turn two or one, and can Hit and Run out when it best suits them? How will armies strip massed hull points from vehicles that can simply grow them back, and that is before any repairs from handy Techmarines are thrown into the mix? And few, particularly those pesky Pathfinders, will want to see a dark green alpha strike consisting of master-crafted flamers and meltas popping out of orbital assault vehicles.
Ah yes, and that is what I have yet to touch on; easily the biggest change to the Astartes is the reintroduction of Chapter Tactics without the need of special characters, unlocking so many different play-styles and completely changing the viability of certain units competitively. While Centurion Devastators may not seem so great on paper at first glance, pair them up with Tank Hunters from the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics and you have yourself one nasty unit. Regular Space Marine bikers are decent, if somewhat unimpressive when compared to their Dark Angel brethren, but when saddled (literally) with the White Scars Chapter Tactics, they become quite possibly the most effective biker (not jetbiker, sadly) unit in the game. Foot-slogging Space Marines may seem like suicide at first, but match them up with the Black Templars Chapter Tactics and a lot of opponents may find - to their probable dismay - that the time the have to whittle you down will run short very quickly. These are but a few obvious applications of the Chapter Tactics, but what it really reenforces is the concept of synergy; matching your chosen units together so that they get the best benefit from these free extra special rules. A Raven Guard army likely won't help your Devastators out all that much, but an Ultramarines army certainly will.
That each of the seven unique Chapter Tactics can completely change the function and effectiveness of a given unit or two out of a suitably packed army list provides some very interesting, and tough, decisions for a player to make during army-list construction. It is for this reason, and because I feel the codex deserves such reward for its quality, that I will be covering each unit in the army list first in the context of a 'generic' unit, i.e. how they would function individually in a force where the Chapter Tactics may not particularly benefit them. Then, I will cover each unit with the relevant Chapter Tactics in their own separate article. I will work out how to make this extra work accessible to you guys, but I may touch on the pertinent examples in the main reviews and leave the bulk to some extra articles. For example, I could cover each unit quickly in a separate "Chapter Tactics - Black Templars" article, or merely provide information on the units that it most affects.
To this end, I am imploring you - our wonderful viewers - to post your feedback on the issue; with the idea in mind of not clogging up articles too much and yet not spreading them too thin, how do you feel I should approach the different Chapter Tactics and their effects on each unit? Should I shorten and condense the articles to a few given units a time to give them the most detail, or create separate articles to cover each unit in their own respective Chapter Tactics in addition to the main Tactica? Any advice is much appreciated!
Major Changes
As part of my experimentation with trying to make the best articles possible - as our feedback lately has been very mixed and I appreciate and understand all of it - I would like to introduce a condensed and concise list of the major changes to a codex from its previous edition. I feel that this will be a helpful tool for viewers to quickly grasp what is new and shiny in the book, and how certain changes may dramatically affect your army lists. Let me know how it goes! So without further ado, here are my top changes to the Space Marine codex in the transition from 5th Edition to 6th Edition (not counting the rule changes in the main rulebook, such as the removal of No Retreat! wounds):
1) Chapter Tactics - Each Space Marine force now has access to one of seven different Chapter Tactics, each providing unique benefits to all or most of your infantry units and characters in an army. Some exceptions, such as Iron Hands, also affect your vehicles. This allows for an insane amount of unique builds in the codex, and without the need of special characters, it means that all Space Marine players can truly make the army they wish. You won't be seeing Vulkan in an Ultramarines army anymore!
2) Cost Cutting - While some units haven't dropped too much in points when considering point increases to certain wargear options, such as Tactical Marines, other units have had severe price cuts to make them much more viable choices. The biggest winners here are easily the Devastator Marines; as an example, a squad of ten with four lascannons would have cost a whopping 310 points in the previous book. Now, they cost a measly 230 points if you include the optional Veteran Sergeant upgrade, adding up to an 80 point difference! Throw in Tank Hunters for free into the deal owing to Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, or even Relentless for a turn with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics, and you have yourself some very hot gravy! Oh, and remember Predator Annihilators? They kinda dropped by 25 points. Just sayin'. A lot of army lists are sure to fit a lot more toys in now at the same points level compared to the old book, which is awesome on so many levels.
3) One Book, Two Flyers - A big problem Space Marines had with the initial edition change was dealing with enemy flyers; while Storm Talons are a big help, their rules were limited to initially a mere White Dwarf magazine, and eventually expanded upon in a costly supplement aptly named Death from the Skies. Now, Space Marines have not one, but two very useful flyers included in the codex without any need for the Death from the Skies supplement, meaning those rules you really wanted are now all found in one easy place! Not to mention, they look a lot nicer in the hardback format with fully-coloured artworks....
4) No Mixing Characters - In the 5th Edition codex, unlocking army builds related more to Salamanders or Imperial Fists as opposed to Ultramarines could only really be accomplished with the implementation of a particular special character into your army list; in either case, it was Vulkan and Lysander, respectively. This created a big theme issue, for one; say you wanted to play an Imperial Fists Fourth Company force, but had to use the Captain of the First Company to do so in a way that made the rules fit (Bolter Drill), how would you react? It would tick you off immensely. And then you had the players who weren't as fussed about fluff and more concerned strictly with making the most competitive army list from the codex, which isn't necessarily a bad thing mind. However, it led to a slew of Ultramarine, Minotaurs and countless Space Marines armies being led by a "counts-as" Vulkan He'stan. Somehow, I don't think the Forgefather would like wearing blue, nor would Salamanders enjoy fielding masses of Land Speeders with multi-meltas or heavy flamers.
Now, owing to Chapter Tactics, each of the special characters are limited to an army list that includes their Chapter Tactics, meaning no more Shrike popping up with Ultramarine thunder hammer and storm shield Terminators. Not only do I love this from a fluff stand-point, but it also makes sense in terms of rules; would it really be fair if someone like Lysander gained It Will Not Die and Feel No Pain (6+) from leading an Iron Hands army? No, it wouldn't. While it will annoy some players as it does force them to keep to a theme they may not want to, I really appreciate this change personally, and it will lead to many players adapting their armies into more thematically driven forces.
5) Chapter Masters - Oh boy, do I remember Chapter Masters in 5th Edition. While not necessarily a bad choice, what they did for your army wasn't as impressive as what Captains could do for less. An Orbital Bombardment might seem cool, but not when your Chapter Master had to virtually sacrifice their turn to use it. Having access to Honour Guard was fine and dandy, but they were effectively over-costed and inferior Terminator equivalents in their previous incarnation. That, and Chapter Masters didn't even unlock Space Marines Bikes as Troops, unlike a Captain! And hey, how come all the special character Chapter Masters - minus Pedro Kantor and Logan Grimnar - had four attacks and four wounds, but not the Chapter Masters of home-crafted Chapters or even representations of famous characters such as Vladimir Pugh of the Imperial Fists?
Happily, Robin Cruddace heard our prayers and, by not only making Honour Guard so much stronger, the boosts to a Chapter Master himself mean that there is now a truly meaningful distinction between them and Captains. Now that they have an extra attack and wound - including Pedro Kantor, yay! - they have been normalized with famous warriors such as Azrael and Commander Dante. The Orbital Bombardment no longer disallows your movement and is likely to be more useful as a result, while Chapter Masters themselves now have access to some awesome wargear options in the form of Chapter Relics; the Shield Eternal and the Burning Blade are sure to be popular inclusions. Oh, and I almost forgot that a Chapter Master on a Bike now makes Space Marine Bikers scoring as well! Hooray for White Scars and other Chapters!
Oh, right, and I should probably mention the Iron Hands Chapter Master on a Bike, as unfluffy as it is - unless you play a successor, obviously. Chuck It Will Not Die and Feel No Pain (6+) on to a model that has Toughness 5 (the bike), Wounds 4 and a base 3+ armour save and 4+ invulnerable save. I'm not done; add in artificer armour to give him a handy 2+ armour save, as well as the Shield Eternal not only to buff his invulnerable save to 3+, but also to give him Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will. Yikes! Add in a weapon of your choice and drink your opponents' tears. Herohammer is back!
6) Varro Tigurius - Let's go back in time to look at one of the most famous of all heroes in the Imperium, the venerable Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines. In his 5th Edition incarnation, Tigurius was a psyker that could use three powers a turn and knew all of the codex powers, two traits that were entirely unavailable to regular Librarians. He could re-roll reserve rolls and his force weapon was master-crafted. And he happened to be over twice the base cost of a Librarian, with no defences aside from two wounds and a 3+ armour save. Yikes. Understandably, despite his versatility, Tigurius was typically restricted to heavily themed army lists that weren't intended strictly for competitive use; a sad fortune for one who should be arguably the strongest Loyalist psyker. Enter the new Space Marine codex. Now, he has an extra wound; he has access to all five of the main rulebook disciplines - and is the only psyker Space Marines can employ with Divination outside of Allies - he has a guaranteed Warlord Trait that allows one of your units within 12" to re-roll their to hit rolls in shooting once per game; he can re-roll the dice to see what powers he generates; he can re-roll failed psychic tests; and last but not least, his force staff also has Soul Blaze. And he costs 65 points less. Well, I'll be the first to say tha.....WHAAAAAAT!? Even despite still lacking an invulnerable save, not only is Tigurius the most improved character or unit in the codex, he is also now arguably the best psyker in the game absolutely bar none. Wow. Ultramarine players who were disappointed that they could no longer use Vulkan? I present you with a new prize for your *cough* loyalty. Holy cow.
7) Black Templars - The Holy Knights of the Astartes have long been a bit of the odd-duck out, left behind for so long with an increasingly aging codex. 6th Edition highlighted the deficiencies in their mostly melee-oriented army, with competitive builds ironically being built around some of their nasty tricks with ranged Terminator squads and the like. Perhaps the most controversial event in 6th Edition so far was the confirmation that Black Templars would not receive their own individual codex, but would instead be rolled into Space Marines as one of the seven main Chapters for successors and variants to follow. Though this obviously led to a hefty reduction in dedicated background and unique rules, the Black Templars have nonetheless gained a lot of benefits to make up for these deficiencies. Barring Librarians, Black Templars now have access to the full arsenal of the Space Marine codex; Thunderfire Cannons, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans as opposed to watered down Sword Brethren, Stormtalons and Stormravens - the list just goes on and on. Helpfully, Black Templars still retain access to their classic and unique units; The Emperor's Champion and Crusader Squads are available for use in a Black Templars force, while Sword Brethren are now the squad leaders for the latter unit. Helbrecht and Grimaldus survived the change thankfully as well, while the vows were replaced with army-wide special rules such as Adamantium Will and Crusader. Overall, rules-wise, the Black Templar fanbase can be thankful for the incredibly expanded range of options available, significant cost drops to their units, and retaining much of their identity from the previous book. I look forward to seeing how the Black Templars perform on the table-top; with army wide bonuses to Run moves, Deny the Witch and Sweeping Advance rolls, I feel there should be a good range of themed and competitive builds for the Sons of Dorn.
In Closing
The new Space Marine codex provides a wealth of different builds and so many ways to employ the many units and characters available. I will do my best to cover all of them in as much useful detail as possible, and I look forward to continuing my work on the codex! Best wishes all! If you have any feedback for me, feel free to post a comment here or speak to me over on the BoLS Lounge. Happy hunting!
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Sept 17, 2013 1:18:09 GMT -5
I am the most excited about the new dex as it sounds balanced and fun to play from multiple angles. I got really bored of playing Templars... Don't get me wrong, super fun! But not having access to all of the options led me to other chapters tactics and the evolution of a story that would lead to more fun...
I like the sound of 7 chapters of play style... each unique! I personally love the inclusion of the chapters with fallen Primarchs from the battle at Istvan V(The battle after the destruction of the few loyalist marines in the fallen chapters, where the closest fleets in the Imperium showed up only to have their Primarchs murdered...) those guys are PISSED at chaos and I hope rules reflect it! Ultra should be pissed at Chaos for the destruction of Calth... I hope this rage is included as well!
Time will tell.. It just seems like an epic book to enjoy!!!
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Sept 17, 2013 1:45:45 GMT -5
a quick summary of changes from Warseer:
So here we are, a new book at last. What a Beast, double the size of most of the others!
Quick summary of the main differences to last edition:
New things: Grav Weapons, Wound on armour saves, immobilise vehicles on a 6, multiple shot salvo. Centurions, big hulking but slow units with massive fire power, only unit able to take a grav cannon and a grav amp, very powerful in the right environment. Assault element yet to be explored in anything more than math hammer. Hunter and the Stalker, AA tanks, one with a single shot seeker (Hunter), the other with large fire output (Stalker). Cheap, cheerful and very average. Relic Items (will be updated later) Chapter Tactics (will be updated later)
General Points changes: Captain - Cheaper Librarian - Cheaper Chaplain - Cheaper Chapter Master - Expensive (but better!) Master Of The Forge - Cheaper Tacticals - Cheaper (but works out the same if you add all the "included" upgrades from last edition) Scouts - Cheaper Crusaders - No Idea, could someone please update me on the BT stuff Razorback - Expensive Land Speeder Storm - Cheaper Vanguard Veterans - Cheaper Sternguard - Cheaper (but combi weapons cost more) Dreadnought - Cheaper Legion Of The Damned - Cheaper Assault Squad - Cheaper Bike Squad - Much Much Cheaper Attack Bikes - More Expensive Scout Bikes - Cheaper Devastators - Cheaper Predator - Cheaper Whirlwind - Cheaper Vindicator - More Expensive
So, that was just a quick summary of the most basic changes, I will post up some more detailed information on the first few posts of this thread. Any reviews or possible synergy between units could you PM me with the info and I will post it up, then it won’t get lost.
On a quick look it looks balancing... lets hope it fields the same!
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Post by Servo on Sept 17, 2013 22:03:12 GMT -5
Excellent points. Can't wait to read the new one.
Just can't decide which Chapter Tactics to use: UM, IF, or Salamanders?
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Post by Servo on Sept 18, 2013 11:50:15 GMT -5
Rumors from Stickmonkey on faeit212, via DakkaDakka: GW Release Schedule Rumors - DakkaDakka- White Scars Supplement = Oct 2013 - Ultramarines Supplement = Nov 2013 - Raven Guard Supplement = 2014 - Black Templars Supplement = 2014 - Blood Angels Codex = 2014 - Flesh Tearers Supplement = 2014 - Space Wolves Codex = 2014
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Sept 19, 2013 23:58:23 GMT -5
Thats weird... If the rules to play them are already in the Codex why additional supplements? Yes back ground fluff and such... but it sounds very complete as it is...
As to what force to play... play all of them! Its really fun being able to run multiple army types. You already have the base models and my impression was that they were built for Ultra... But all chapters understand the tactics of their battle brothers...
In "Angel Exterminatis" Pertuabo(primarch of the Iron Hands) is running a full simulated attack on terra based on the known tactics of the Imperial Fists. Why wouldn't a legion adapt tactics in different scenarios?
More importantly, you are playing Ghost Marines... as all Space marines have access to the same tech... Play how you want!
Its like getting three armies for the price of one! Sure there is the issue of thinking about tactics though a different lense... But to me thats more fun! What I mean to say is that each style(like in Kung-Fu) has its own strengths and weaknesses... Keep us on our toes, not knowing what we will face! Its super fun!
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 8, 2013 1:04:19 GMT -5
Looks like a fun dex... I cannot wait to play it! Changes seem minimal, and some things are more expensive *cough* LANDSPEEDERS*cough* but no big deal...
There are silly things like centurions.... but they dont seem as silly as they look... Templars get a bit back:) and Tactics per army are handled fairly well imho... a decent dex!
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 8, 2013 1:05:13 GMT -5
The main parts of this dex have extra anchovies....
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Post by Servo on Oct 10, 2013 21:37:16 GMT -5
It looks like, once again, a rumor dump from Stickmonkey was either made up, refers to rumors so old they have changed, or GW got wind and decided to shake things up to mess with rumor mongers.
It appears Space Marine supplements will not be for Full Chapters, which have rules in the main Codex. Rather, the supplements will be for specific formations. The first is Sentinels of Terra, which is for the Imperial Fists 3rd Company. The second supplement is Clan Raukaan, which is one of the Iron Hands companies (called "clans").
Here is some info about Clan Raukaan:
via an anonymous source on Faeit 212 This is from the November White Dwarf, Clan Raukaan is an Iron Hands codex supplement set for digital release in November. Here are some of the details mentioned Iron Hands companies are named after the clans of Medusa, and Clan Raukaan is the largest of these. Battles vs chapters arch rival- The Slaanesh Prince the Saphire King Rules for fielding Clan Raukaan including the standard;
Chapter Relics, Apocalypse Datasheets, Stratagems for Planetstrike, Cities of Death Altar of War Kardan Stronos is also mentioned as the Iron Father of Clan Raukaan, but might just be part of the background.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 14, 2013 23:56:45 GMT -5
Servo: Any speculations on how this new codex will play on the tabletop vs the previous dex?
While I have built a force using space marine models, a force capable of fielding most SM armies... my view point on things is always through the eyes of the Eldar. Except that space marines are incredibly more resilient, have access to fun goodies not available to Eldar, are far less specialized, and were the focus of the 40k universe until 6th edition...
Hard to see why I play SM so often... I think not...
But I do not have the experience of seeing the game through the eyes of the astartes. To me it was a new rule set, a different tactic, but much more... It was learning how they perform on the tabletop.
How do you see these changes effecting how marines are played in 6th? More specifically do the changes to points on heavy weapons and wargear have an affect... or are they different sides to the same coin?
To me it seems a bit more balanced, as base costs are higher but overall builds remain the same with small increases or decreases to point values...
Shooting is big now... as a space marine player do you see grav weapons having a place? Regular tactical marines got a decent boost with the 6th edition rules, but have they changed significantly in this book?
To me, playing Templars, I never really got the full flavor of the regular marine dex as I was set up to play Blood Angels out of the gate... I never really got toplay too much with that dex as too many strategies revolved around it. I was trying to pick different strategies where a person couldnt just dial up a defense.
I know I still have crusader squads... but its like all of a sudden I can get crazy new wargear(although its ancient, it was not part of the templars dex) and it seems pretty good... list building will have to take place to see whats up... but it remains a curiosity to me what your opinion is.
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