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Post by Servo on Oct 20, 2011 16:17:36 GMT -5
Tom = Thank you for putting up a defined and reasonable (and concise!) list to show what you would like to see for army presentation. That is not to say I agree with all of it. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) 1) The model must be either GW or scratch built. The term scratch built means it was forged in the spirit of the hobby and not a left over from a food item from the grocery store(exception of tyranid spores, there is no model, but a toy company makes an "accidental" replica of what one might be) 2) Down grades always possible I agree. These 2 I do not agree with. It seems like you want to have every option in the Codex available to you without having to buy/build/convert the actual models. These are the kind of items where I would be fine in a one-off game, or as a 1 unit exception. I do not have a problem with someone wanting to "test drive" a unit before buying, or using an unfinished unit once in awhile, but it should not be used as an excuse to field whatever you want without putting the work out there. One of the problems with proxying is forcing your opponent to remember that something in your army is not actually what it looks like. You can say that it might be easy to remember some silly colored dot scheme or whatever, but it should not be the responsbility of the opponent to keep track. There will always be exceptions (discussed later), but for the most part WYSIWYG should be the rule. Very good point. I would just say that under any circumstances where a proxy is allowed, they must be the same size base and approximate height/bulk. What? You will probably burn in Eldar hell just for suggesting that! I do not count this as proxying, it is converting. If they have the appropriate wargear and/or paintjob and it is obvious what they represent without having to explain to your opponent, then they should be fine. I think if there is no model, that is an excellent reason to use a proxy. Even if we went completely WYSIWYG, I would still say we make exceptions for models not produced. Although you have listed some guidelines, you have very few restrictions. There is nothing preventing a player from having an ENTIRE army proxied, where no model is armed as modeled. I think that would be confusing and unfair to your opponent. I would be willing to concede EVERYTHING on what should be allowed for a proxy, as long as we limited the number of units allowed to contain proxies. I would rather see one unit of Striking Scorpions count as Kommandos than an entire army of Space Marines where this Flamer is a Meltagun, this Chaplain is a Librarian, this Rhino is a Predator, and this unit of Scouts with Pistols actually have Sniper Rifles.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 22, 2011 6:16:47 GMT -5
To me it is not about lack of wanting to buy, build, or paint models... As you all know I own more than 3000 points of every army I play(eldar, orks. space marines)... With the possible exception of daemons who I am close with...
In addition, I wanted to use a venerable dread in the last campaign, so I bought one and painted it special for everyones enjoyment... Like you(Servo) I feel like I am a hobbyist and a gamer... but I feel like I have more emphasis on the gaming side, and have less than 50% of anything ready for official tournaments. With the exception of my Eldar which are at 85-90% painted(and thats a lot of stuff)...
The big problem I have with the wysiwyg rule set is that I find it very limiting... Yes I would like to have the ability to field anything from my codexes... maybe even at the same time if anyone would let me mix and match, but I dont think its reasonable.
I have had a few friends in the area think about starting up an army, but regularly the final answer is that they feel like the player who invests the most money will win. This being because you can regularly switch tactics, customize your list better, and even buy better firepower...
It has been my argument that it is a game of strategy... however certain units have a greater synergy with each dexes load out and so depending on a persons play style different units will perform better.(So my retort is "proxy when needed")
This plus keeping your opponent on their toes... If someone knows you like to play certain units and is not bringing an all comers list changing it up will teach them a lesson...
I dont feel like cash or time should limit the amount of fun that could be had playing the game. Though I am sure the GW corporate office feels differently.
Its true the onus should be on the proxying player to not only declare the proxy in advance but also to remind their opponent during the game... In the example of the dotted bases, I gave a copy of the changes and meaning of the painted dots to my opponent... so they would not have to keep track of anything.
I am glad you have written a reply and opened the floor to ideas or possible ways to get around the situation as it really has no effect on me anyway(except for the painting)... now if other players would be so kind as to share their opinions... You guys could get this campaign rocking!!!
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Post by ghostwheel11 on Oct 23, 2011 0:49:04 GMT -5
I feel that my vote was cast correctly because I'm not all about proxies, but there obviously are places where it is either needed or allows for more varied game play for everyone.
It depends on the player really, if you're not really into 40k then it wouldn't be that hard to just be on the sideline playing pick-up games with people, but if you're going to take part in a tournament or campaign then the rules are tighter to keep things more inline with the rules of the tournament/campaign so you would need to maybe invest your time and money to allow yourself more options.
Personally I don't really care about winning much because it's not the result of the game that matters it's the fun and social aspects of it I like, so I'm not a tactician by any sense of the word, but I enjoy the vehicle of which we use to get together and talk shit and tell stories. So because of my personal opinion I wouldn't care if Ellis and I got together and decided that we wanted to each field completely theoretical armies using bases with the model names written on it. But for a tournament/campaign I wouldn't suggest that we allow it on that extreme.
The way we had it for the tournament seemed just fine to me and I don't see why we couldn't *easily* get away with the same rule because our battles are more unrestricted as far as what we can field (new army list every game).
So to make a long post short (too late)...I agree with both of you overall, but for the campaign I meet more in the middle. Some restriction, but not WYSIWIG completely. I personally might just proxy the new overlord as the old lord model, but I don't see that as a problem or difficult to keep track of. If complications *could* arise from that then I'll retract that and just play what I can field.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 24, 2011 7:29:04 GMT -5
To methis hts the nail on the head! The focus, in my mind is on the getting together and playing... not on specific models and configurations there of... It is a fellowship and it is frop for lack of better term.... Sure every army wishes to be wysiwyg.... It more often what is available... as long as the most fun is had Id say every one wins... yes its not as fulfilling to plat against non painted models.... everyone knows the painted ones do better!!!
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Post by Servo on Oct 24, 2011 14:08:39 GMT -5
Winner = Unpainted models allowed; proxies allowed
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Post by Servo on Oct 24, 2011 15:02:06 GMT -5
How does WYSIWYG prevent "getting together and playing"? How does WYSIWYG detract from our "brotherhood"? How does eliminating WYSIWYG ensure everyone has the "most fun"?
And what is "frop"?
If someone feels that the emphasis should be on playing the game and having fun, then why not play the game and have fun with the models you have?
If someone feels that strategy is the most important or most fun aspect of the game, then why not apply strategy with the models you have?
It is not "strategy" to look up online what the best list is to kill Tau and then field that exact list when you play Tau. And when you do that without even fielding the correct models, it sounds like you are more concerned with winning than fun.
As I have said, I am not against "counts as" units that have no models yet, or proxying a unit to test it before buying, or subbing a model because you were short one. These should be examples of exceptions, not the standard.
But to imply that unrestricted proxying should be allowed in order to tailor your army list so much that you practically guarantee victory before the game starts is in some way "more fun" is a false argument. It is only more fun for one person.
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Post by Servo on Oct 24, 2011 15:07:24 GMT -5
Personally I don't really care about winning much because it's not the result of the game that matters it's the fun and social aspects of it I like, so I'm not a tactician by any sense of the word, but I enjoy the vehicle of which we use to get together and talk shit and tell stories. So because of my personal opinion I wouldn't care if Ellis and I got together and decided that we wanted to each field completely theoretical armies using bases with the model names written on it. But for a tournament/campaign I wouldn't suggest that we allow it on that extreme. Well said, Eric. +1 Karma for you. And I don't think using a Lord as an Overlord will be a proxy. Isn't that just basically a name change?
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 24, 2011 15:17:59 GMT -5
Tim, according to the Urban Dictionary website: FROP To slap one in the face with your penis.
Example: Jack fropped Jill because he thought it was funny, but Jill didn't like it because she thought that being fropped was degrading. Needless to say, Jack didn't get any that night. Yeah, best not to think about that one.
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 24, 2011 15:53:18 GMT -5
Ah, WYSIWYG...we meet again. If someone wants to try out something out to see how it works before committing to a purchase, I don't have an issue with it. But if I consistently use a Tonka truck and say it's a Battlewagon with armament that varies each game...shenanigans. And when playing a game, I should be able to look at my opponent's models and know what it is I'm facing. I shouldn't have to question my opponent on what something is supposed to be. And if something is being proxied, it should be with a comparable model so I'm not completely thrown off 3 turns into the game. For example, "These slugga boyz are being proxied as shoota boyz". OK, not too crazy. But "These slugga boyz are all Flash Gitz". Oh, that's just insane. Not only are you talking about a completely different and unique type of armament, but you are giving what appears to be standard boyz increased stats. I'm sure my opponent wouldn't be to thrilled to recall after charging in that those 10 little sluggas actually have Nob-comparable stats. Keep it simple, keep it similar. Most of all, keep it fun. That's why we do what we do. I mention all this not just from the perspective of what I'm facing, but also from the standpoint of what I'm presenting. I don't want to feel like I earned an advantage in a game because someone didn't fully comprehend what was on the table. And one last thing...I would just like to point out the irony in that the only member of our group who has commented on how cash should not limit ones enjoyment is also the one member of our group who has mentioned he has 3000+ points each of, what...4...5...8 different armies? Sorry, Tom. You know I love you! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 24, 2011 15:57:43 GMT -5
It is not "strategy" to look up online what the best list is to kill Tau and then field that exact list when you play Tau. And when you do that without even fielding the correct models, it sounds like you are more concerned with winning than fun. As I have said, I am not against "counts as" units that have no models yet, or proxying a unit to test it before buying, or subbing a model because you were short one. These should be examples of exceptions, not the standard. But to imply that unrestricted proxying should be allowed in order to tailor your army list so much that you practically guarantee victory before the game starts is in some way "more fun" is a false argument. It is only more fun for one person. Kudos, Tim. I heartily agree 100%!
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Post by Mephiston on Oct 24, 2011 21:26:17 GMT -5
The only proxy that I have ever called is the Flamestorm on the Baal Predator. That being said it did not bother me to face headless weaponless Choppas. My vote for unpainted was obvious, not all of my units are painted and stupid child labor laws haven't helped me get them painted. My vote for proxies was really a vote allowing unfinished models to be played. I might want to declare a plasma cannon a missile launcher along the way but for the most part I will play what I've painted. If someone attempts a ridiculous proxy then I will humiliate them and their families on this forum until they recant their declaration. Simple as that.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 25, 2011 4:27:44 GMT -5
Sil Odan: Thats why above I commented that me and servo playing devils advocate, or debating points, over the mentioned topic was a fairly moot discussion... Since both of us will most likely play models in a tournament that are wysiwyg... The only exception to me would be the nids as no one can tell what biomorph is what probably... But knowing me I will magnetize them and paint then bright colors for emphasis just to eliminate problem... Ultimately, I feel proud playing and easy to understand(for my opponent) army... Servo: Frop if we we all recall from the book of the subgenious was fellowship... most often found while in search of the holy caffeine overdose... While its true, using Army Builder I mill through lists hand over fist, generally in the process of optimizing a list... I don't feel like I am trying to use proxies in any kind of nefarious way. Usually I want to proxy the model in question as it would seem to fit a needed niche in the army... Though for a tournament, It might not be good, if playing the same army over and over like in Cake or Death, to use models you are unfamiliar with. However since you guys are allowing to use new lists each time... people might want to switch it up.. I have thought about it and I do agree, for a tournament the rules and expectations should be more astringent, but for this campaign, the feel to me is a way to organize weekly game play and an objective to win a larger contest... Which is great to help motivate game play... and there should be a prize!! Perhaps its just the way I am, I like options and like to test different stratagems on the table. Sometimes Ill read a battle report or tactica and say Id like to try that, and I think it will be fun for my opponent also... Sometimes I just dont have the models... I know wazzdakka, me not have the models... Oh yah, one thing, almost any list kills Tau... There is no need to research it... An example is the sniper Templar troop model... 5 guys per squad one heavy weapon per squad,and I just dont have 6 las cannons... The stupid devastator box only has 2(maybe only 1)... and at this point Im trying to get the bits for a good price on ebay as Im not going to use 6 of each and they want too much money for that box... Ultimately to me the conversation is a bit moot as I have most of what I want to play... I do have less fun not having what I wanted to play and I end up feeling like the loss or victory could have been different if I had the ability to try something else... Though as I said before, using new units doesnt always turn out right and can easily give an opponent a victory... I dont mind losing if I have learned something from it... but i do play to win... Hoping that its fun the entire time... Mostly, I was wanting to keep the discussion rolling until the others weighed in, for their benefits... especially since Im not playing in this campaign... Also if anyone plays a tonka truck the have to also where oshkosh overalls and a denim conductors cap, plus a t-shirt which is of the following: My little pony, small wonder, or my pet monster. @ Servo:(did you get a chance to check out the BR I mailed to you?)
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 25, 2011 10:18:42 GMT -5
Mephiston: I don't have an issue with the Flamestorm proxy...though maybe I should, just to keep you from making more s'morkes. And if you are referring to my deffcoptas, I'll have you know though they are headless, they certainly aren't weaponless! All of them are modeled with rockets (oops, my bad...rokkits...). But yeah, uh...no heads. But good news, I finally found them!
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Post by Mephiston on Oct 25, 2011 11:38:38 GMT -5
ooo, I like the crazy model train nut look. Maybe I'll adopt it with a Blood Angels flare. Red overalls with a gold shirt... wait, that's the My Buddy Doll's outfit.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 26, 2011 4:32:28 GMT -5
Yes, so after the game you can take the Tonka truck to dairy queen with your My Buddy and both get dilly bars! People will say how cute you both are:p
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