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Post by Servo on Oct 11, 2011 22:33:38 GMT -5
This Poll has been redone to allow people to change their votes. If you already voted, please re-enter your vote. If you have not yet voted, get off your ass and get to it.
A "proxy" is not an old model or a conversion. Old models should be encouraged due to sentimentality and not giving GW more $ for new models; conversions should be encouraged because they are fun.
A proxy is "this bolter is actually a Lascannon" or "this Rhino is actually a Land Raider" or "this CD case is actually a Battlewagon".
"GW Tournament Restrictions" means the rules followed by most large 40K and Fantasy Tournaments: All models painted with at least 4 colors, all models based, all models are WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get).
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 12, 2011 4:58:16 GMT -5
I concur, but I would submit a change to definition.
I would say a proxy works as such: A godhammer pattern landraider can also be a redeemer or crusader.
I)Vehicles built off the same base model can be proxied... but within reason... examples follow...
A rhino Is just a rhino, otherwise proxying as a landraider confers the bonus of easier cover...
An annihilator predator can also be a another predator variant... possibly somthing else from the same chassy, like a whirlwind.
A dreadnought from black reach or regular dread from box can be venerable.
A deff dread can have any armament as long as its specified, however a killa kan cannot be a deff dread...
A falcon can be a wave serpent...
Basically armaments can be switched to models which occupy the same space or general physiological disposition.... Except in the case of Wazzdakkas kustom trukks which besides looking awesome confer him no rules benefit(as from what I have seen they are a bit larger than the gw trukks)
II Special Characters
A. The proxy must have the same base size... This becomes very important for cc(where they count a separate unit, also movement through terrain, or into assault...
B. The proxy must have a similar physical profile... a gretchin cannot be a Warboss, a hormagaunt cannot be a hive tyrant or tervigon, etc...
C. The opposing player must agree it is reasonable and not giving the proxier a significant advantage.
D. Weapons, if points paid are correctly payed do not matter as long as it is clearly stated at the beginning of play. No,"surprise this Autarch in a warpspider backpack really has a power sword and a fusion(melta) gun," as tactics will change based on threat priority assigned by the opponent.
III Everything Else
Most troop or elite units come with enough bits to make it all work or be wysiwyg... however with a few armies it is difficult to maximize model mileage with what you find in the box. So here is what I think is reasonable...
A. Units of troops boyz, marines, warriors, etc... can be armed as noted by the army list. This specifically gets me with shoota boys as they are awesome but you have to paint so many... and build so many... I would say weapon switching between basic units is ok.
However a heavy or special weapon troop, such as big shoota, plasmagun, melta gun, lascannon, must at the minimum need to be represented buy a model carrying a heavy weapon or unique enough to show easily that this model is equiped uniquely for the unit. With nobs I have put painted dots on bases to show their unique eqipment to make sure wounds are applied correctly. Basically the opponent needs to know quickly and easily what he is facing.
B. Unit models must be a similar size. A bloodletter cannot be proxied as a bloodcrusher... The base size and relative physical size must be similar. In a similar incidence a boy cannot be a nob, or a warrior(necron or DE respectively) cannot be a destroyer or reaver.
The most extreme model proxying I have done is adding two guardians to a squad of pink horrors They are a bit taller but occupy the same general space, both have spindly appendages, the guardian does not give an advantage with a taller size, and they have the same base size.
The most reasonable proxy I have done(besides assume this model has wings, which by the rules does not count for line of sight) was with eldar jetbikes. I used regular jetbikes, but proxy as a warlock jetbike squad... The slight difference in helmets and fashion accessories was agreed upon to have no significance to tactics... Similarly I proxied slugga boyz for shoota boys(though this can lead to problems if assault happens so these units need to be marked), I have proxied a regular terminator for an apothocary terminator(he was clearly marked), and have used necron warriors as immortals. In the end, not being familiar enough with the models to actually own them was an advantage to the opponent...
C. If there is a question of validity ask the opponent if it is reasonable. If by shear will they are able to wrap their mind around the starling change of physiological transformation you are asking of them to perform then by all meansIt should be fun for all... hopefully a damn challenge as obviously a brilliant plan has been hatched and you are just short on models!
I feel personally that this game can be all about who has the most money... or time... and it should be about FUN!!!! and creative uses of our chosen forces, not about what we have purchased... I love playing against any army which will belly up to the bar!
While Im sure I have not covered every situation, I feel like we should list some no no's. No soda cans, no taco bell boxes,not even a cleverly cut foam widget..... well unless its really good. We are at a point in our lives where we can buy models or start a business and get them for cost...
Proxies should be reasonable, thats my 2 cents
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Post by Servo on Oct 12, 2011 12:14:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not reading all that.
The gist seems to be that you are listing examples of when it might be acceptable to use a proxy. Do you have a general statement you could put in a sentence or 2? Do they have to be GW models? Do they have to be models at all? Should anything be allowed?
I think 2 players can agree to whatever they want in a one-off game. I really like the idea of someone saying "I was thinking of buying this unit, can I play a game with you proxying the unit as something else before I buy?".
But in Tournaments and Campaigns some standards should be set. If we do 1 Campaign and 1 Tournament a year, the time in between can be used for building/painting as well as playing games as practice for these 2 mega events.
Warhammer is really not just about playing the game. It is a hobby, and painting and modelling and collecting are all parts of it. There is no intention of penalizing people with limited time or money, but aren't we now penalizing people who actually spent time on building their armies?
These polls have the "Retract" button so we can change votes. I will do that if we reach a compromise, but I just can't vote for "Unpainted; proxies allowed". The "1 unit as proxy or unpainted" sounds pretty good.
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 12, 2011 13:57:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not reading all that. Sorry, Tom. I had the same reaction this morning! I don't mind minor proxies. I don't have shoota boyz, so I might like to try proxying a squad of sluggas as shootas to try 'em out. Or maybe a downgrade like using Nobz bikers as regular warbikers to field a full squad. But I don't agree with something outrageous like "this Pez dispenser is a deff dread" or "that Micro Machine is a Battlewagon". That's just ri-cock-ulous. I do want to get my mini's painted; but a restriction on painting just means I'm going to need quite a bit of prep time to get my army up to fluff. And when I cram painting sessions because I have to, it becomes less enjoyable than if I paint because I want to. Makes it feel like work. And suddenly I don't want to paint. Being that this is our first campaign and we are field testing a slew of new scenarios, I don't think the restriction should apply for this one. But it definately should for the next. |
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Post by Servo on Oct 12, 2011 15:54:27 GMT -5
That is a good idea, Ellis. "Downgrade proxies" are common, and I would vote for that.
I think saying "this squad of Nobs Bikers are regular Bikers" or "this squad of Veterans are regular Marines" sounds reasonable. And I definitely think downgrading Special Characters by saying "this Tycho is a regular Captain" or "this Ghazkull is a standard Warboss in Mega Armour" should always be OK, no matter how we vote.
"Upgrade proxies" and proxied equipment like weapons and armor are a different matter. My main problem is equipment. Keeping track of proxied equipment, and asking your opponent to also keep track of your proxied equipment, seems too much.
I would rather have the Campaign be WYSIWYG than enforce painting rules.
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Post by Mephiston on Oct 12, 2011 22:31:09 GMT -5
Again, as long as I can declare that my twin assault cannons on my Baal Predator is a Flamestorm so I can kick my feet up on a cold winters night, listen to some Leonard Cohen, drink some Scotch, and enjoy the warmth and glow of a whole mess of burning Orks then I'm happy.
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Post by Mephiston on Oct 12, 2011 22:35:16 GMT -5
And I think that we lacking some options in this poll. How about reasonable proxies as listed above and a few more than 1 unpainted per unit. Perhaps 75% painted units. Plus, what is painted? 4 colors and a base? As long as all of my models don their gold medals and first place blue ribbons then I think I can meet that challenge.
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Post by Servo on Oct 12, 2011 23:09:25 GMT -5
Those are all good options and good points. I had asked for nominations for the polls beforehand, but only these few were discussed for this poll.
We can re-do the poll. Everybody not happy with these options please make a list of all the options you would like to see, and we will make a new poll.
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Post by Mephiston on Oct 12, 2011 23:12:34 GMT -5
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 13, 2011 6:11:31 GMT -5
O Again, as long as I can declare that my twin assault cannons on my Baal Predator is a Flamestorm so I can kick my feet up on a cold winters night, listen to some Leonard Cohen, drink some Scotch, and enjoy the warmth and glow of a whole mess of burning Orks then I'm happy. On second thought, maybe we shouldn't allow proxies... ;D And Matt, thanks for the video. It made me smile, just a little. |
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Post by ghostwheel11 on Oct 13, 2011 19:50:28 GMT -5
Personally I thought that the option "1 unit per army may have unpainted or proxy models" was a good representation of how the summer tournament was represented....which was all I was looking for.
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Post by Servo on Oct 14, 2011 12:46:07 GMT -5
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this issue?
The easiest thing to do if someone wants to vote for an option not listed on the poll is to retract your vote then do a "write in" on the thread.
Also, we are still missing at least 1 voter on this issue. Everyone please check that you voted.
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 19, 2011 5:24:18 GMT -5
Ok ok I write to much... but you guys are worth it...
How about these for "The gist of it" proxy rules
1) The model must be either GW or scratch built. The term scratch built means it was forged in the spirit of the hobby and not a left over from a food item from the grocery store(exception of tyranid spores, there is no model, but a toy company makes an "accidental" replica of what one might be)
2) Down grades always possible
3) WYSIWYG is not needed if the model in question is clearly marked and defined pregame, or the entire unit is proxied. All wargear including jump packs or deffguns etc...(down the road I agree this could change, but I dont think we are all there yet)
4) Vehicles built from same chassis can be proxied to any variant of that chassis.(ie.. a wave serpent can also be a fire prism or falcon. A rhino can be a predator or whirlwind, etc...)
5) The model in question cannot be intentionally gaining an advantage by being proxied.(ie this nurgling base is a bloodthirster... eat that 50% blocked cover save)
6) The proxy is declared within reason by the opponent.
I think this sums up my feelings on the issue... Personally I love the idea of a slaanesh deamon prince being a wraithlord model(I mean what happened there?), or boys(with kustom gear) being commandos etc...
In some cases there is no model... Is a model made for it a proxy? Flash gitz, tervigons, spores, I mean the list continues... So in the name of fun lets have at it!
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Post by JohnnyDangerous on Oct 19, 2011 5:38:43 GMT -5
I always like the fluff perspective of the proxy situation, especially with wargear... I mean if the orks were being attacked by the eldar, they wouldn't think about what weapon the opponent is holding or know the difference...
on a cluttered battlefield where one wrong move means death, stay away from the fast flying little things.... If someone teleports in next to you... launch an assault...
I do agree with your point servo that it is a hobby, and people should lovingly craft these arrangements(army lists)... I mean a gardener is not going to enter gardenias in a rose competition... but it will be a pain in the ass now for everyone to get it together... Some of us may only have gardenias now...
Painting
I say for now... at least based should be minimum... I personally have alot of work to do all over the board when it comes to painting... but using my scrying stones I foresee fast moving necron vehicles appearing halfway through this campaign... Though they might not be able to be fully painted, surely we would all like to see what they can do!
When it comes to boyz.... omg its immposible... to quote day of the dead,"there are too many of them!" And its not for lack of love of the hobby that they dont get painted... It becomes more of do I just crap these out... or do I make each one a masterpiece. either way, even the crap them out method takes soooooo long....
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Post by Sil Odan on Oct 19, 2011 8:09:51 GMT -5
...even the crap them out method takes soooooo long.... One word: Fiber. |
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